Festival d'Isis
+10
rayban35
Michel P
luperca
Chut
elagabale2000
Lars Ramskold
Al.cofribas
Nemesis
le Diablinte
myriam
14 participants
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Festival d'Isis
Une série de monnaie du festival d'Isis présente au revers Isis jetant un filet. Cohen, et à sa suite CGB, indique qu'Isis tient la voile du navire sur laquelle elle se situe. D'une part la dite voile est quadrillée et d'autre par Isis vas vers la droite et regarde vers la gauche, pour moi elle effectue le mouvement circulaire du lancer de filet. La légende d'Isis et d'Osiris rapporte en effet qu'Isis a récupéré le corps démembré de son frère dans le Nil, le mieux pour le faire est le filet
Re: Festival d'Isis
Je ne sais pas, la voile me semble plus être en rapport avec le culte d' "Isis Faria", protectrice du phare d'Alexandrie, où elle avait d'ailleurs un temple, puis par extension, protectrice des marins (plus que des pêcheurs). Par ailleurs les mosaïques entourant le forum des corporations à Ostie montrent souvent des voiles quadrillées ressemblant un peu à celles de ces monnaies:
myriam- Piliers du forum
- Messages : 9153
Date d'inscription : 25/12/2011
Re: Festival d'Isis
Tu ne trouves pas étrange que la voile soit tenue par le haut ? Comme si Isis était le mât du navire ? Pour moi elle semble bien tenir un filet du genre "épervier"
Re: Festival d'Isis
sur les provinciales d'Alexandrie où Isis Pharia est régulièrement représentée, on voit nettement que c'est une voile
il existe juste deux bronzes autonomes d'Eolide datés des années 250/260 où le doute est permis
il existe juste deux bronzes autonomes d'Eolide datés des années 250/260 où le doute est permis
Dernière édition par le Diablinte le Sam 27 Déc - 22:25, édité 1 fois
le Diablinte- Double Maiorina
- Messages : 321
Date d'inscription : 03/02/2011
Age : 45
Localisation : la bazouge de chéméré
Re: Festival d'Isis
Elle est peut-être symboliquement vue comme le mât du navire...
La forme de la deuxième monnaie rappelle quand même bien celle d'une voile.
C'est quoi un filet épervier?
La forme de la deuxième monnaie rappelle quand même bien celle d'une voile.
C'est quoi un filet épervier?
myriam- Piliers du forum
- Messages : 9153
Date d'inscription : 25/12/2011
Re: Festival d'Isis
Dis donc le Diablinte, puisque tu es là, tu peux nous aider pour la provinciale de Taz?
https://www.nummus-bibleii.com/t6709-provinciale-romaine-a-identifier
https://www.nummus-bibleii.com/t6709-provinciale-romaine-a-identifier
myriam- Piliers du forum
- Messages : 9153
Date d'inscription : 25/12/2011
Re: Festival d'Isis
& sur la 1ere monnaie on voit même la vergue, ce que ne laisse pas de doute sur la voile!
le Diablinte- Double Maiorina
- Messages : 321
Date d'inscription : 03/02/2011
Age : 45
Localisation : la bazouge de chéméré
Re: Festival d'Isis
myriam a écrit:Elle est peut-être symboliquement vue comme le mât du navire...
La forme de la deuxième monnaie rappelle quand même bien celle d'une voile.
C'est quoi un filet épervier?
Merci beaucoup pour vos recherches
Un épervier est simplement un filet qui se tiens vers le haut et se jette en mouvement circulaire pour pécher
Re: Festival d'Isis
Je ne voulais pas créer un sujet supplémentaire alors comme c'est raccord avec le titre de celui-ci...
Lars Ramskold s'est lui aussi un peu amusé avec les tessères - c'est ainsi qu'il les appelle - du festival d'Isis durant le règne de Constantin.
https://www.academia.edu/15278092/Constantine_the_Greats_pagan_Festival_of_Isis_tesserae_reconsidered
Lars Ramskold s'est lui aussi un peu amusé avec les tessères - c'est ainsi qu'il les appelle - du festival d'Isis durant le règne de Constantin.
https://www.academia.edu/15278092/Constantine_the_Greats_pagan_Festival_of_Isis_tesserae_reconsidered
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Ah cool ! J'ai donc une monnaie du Festival d'Isis avec ma VOTA VICENNALIOR ! (qui mériterai une meilleure photo d'ailleurs )
http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/monnaie-2446.htm
Merci beaucoup
:bienvu:
http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/monnaie-2446.htm
Merci beaucoup
:bienvu:
Re: Festival d'Isis
Je n'avais jamais remarqué que tu en avais une !
Oui, elle mérite une meilleure photo ce qui en plus permettrait de comparer les coins.
Dernière édition par Genio popvli romani le Dim 30 Aoû - 21:31, édité 1 fois
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Difficile de s'en assurer, mais il me semble que ton coin de revers puisse être le même que celui de l'exemplaire de Paris illustré. Avec les 3 N de VICENNNALIOR.
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Elle est incroyable cette vota vicenn(n)alior!
J'ai du mal avec l'article de Ramskold! Il faut vraiment le lire entre les (rares) lignes de texte.
Soit on considère que la série des vota pvblica est émise à l'occasion du navigium Isidis, qui se déroulait en mars et qui marquait la reprise annuelle de la navigation (une autre fête en l'honneur d'Isis Faria se déroulait en octobre, en fin de saison) soit on en fait des médaillons de nouvel an, à l'occasion des vœux que la population adressait à l'empereur. Mais Ramskold tente de confondre les deux en indiquant que cette fête d'Isis aurait été déplacée au début du mois de janvier, je ne sais pas d'où ça vient. Et il rajoute que ces séries n'auraient été émises après 318 qu'aux anniversaires de règne. Elles ne sont datables (approximativement) que par rapprochement de style avec les nummi de même période, mais ça ne dit rien ni sur la durée ni sur d'éventuelles interruptions de leur frappe. Je n'ai sans doute pas tout compris.
Rattacher ta monnaie à ces séries, c'est étonnant mais l'argument de la date est convaincant si le RIC ne se trompe pas, la titulature propre à l'atelier de Rome pour Constance césar (FL VAL...) ne disparait pour les bronzes qu'en 329-330 et devient celle plus commune FL IVL, mais pourquoi en 330 faire encore allusion aux vicennalia quand ceci aurait pu être fait au cours des VOTA PVBLICA émis en 326? Pour la tête tenue au revers, rien n'évoque vraiment Sérapis coiffé d'un modius. C'est très étrange
J'ai du mal avec l'article de Ramskold! Il faut vraiment le lire entre les (rares) lignes de texte.
Soit on considère que la série des vota pvblica est émise à l'occasion du navigium Isidis, qui se déroulait en mars et qui marquait la reprise annuelle de la navigation (une autre fête en l'honneur d'Isis Faria se déroulait en octobre, en fin de saison) soit on en fait des médaillons de nouvel an, à l'occasion des vœux que la population adressait à l'empereur. Mais Ramskold tente de confondre les deux en indiquant que cette fête d'Isis aurait été déplacée au début du mois de janvier, je ne sais pas d'où ça vient. Et il rajoute que ces séries n'auraient été émises après 318 qu'aux anniversaires de règne. Elles ne sont datables (approximativement) que par rapprochement de style avec les nummi de même période, mais ça ne dit rien ni sur la durée ni sur d'éventuelles interruptions de leur frappe. Je n'ai sans doute pas tout compris.
Rattacher ta monnaie à ces séries, c'est étonnant mais l'argument de la date est convaincant si le RIC ne se trompe pas, la titulature propre à l'atelier de Rome pour Constance césar (FL VAL...) ne disparait pour les bronzes qu'en 329-330 et devient celle plus commune FL IVL, mais pourquoi en 330 faire encore allusion aux vicennalia quand ceci aurait pu être fait au cours des VOTA PVBLICA émis en 326? Pour la tête tenue au revers, rien n'évoque vraiment Sérapis coiffé d'un modius. C'est très étrange
myriam- Piliers du forum
- Messages : 9153
Date d'inscription : 25/12/2011
C'est seulement un discours
I apologize for writing in English. My French is not good enough.
Thank you for the attention given to my talk. Please remember that what you have seen are the slldes for a talk, it is not a written paper. I will present the talk at the numismatic conference in Taormina later this month. It will then become the basis for a comprehensive paper, to be published in the procedings years later.
Please note that after discussions with Prof. Laurent Bricault (Tolouse) and others, I regard Alföldi's suggestion that the festival was moved from 5 March to New Year as wrong. One indication is that the Magnentius tesserae with the legend IMP CAE MAGNENTIVS AVG can only have been produced in 350. Magnentius took Rome 24 Feb 350, so the tesserae cannot have been made for New Year but could have been made for 5 March. So it is rather ambiguous what public vows the VOTA PVBLICA legend refers to.
Also, I have changed Hermanubis to Anubis, following recent research by Michel Malaise.
I have uploaded a revised version to Academia.com and to ResearchGate.
The VOTA VICENNAILIOR (and the spelling error VICENNNALIOR) pieces are most interesting. The object held in the hand is certainly not a human head (as proposed for two hundred years). But what is it? I think that the specimen of elagabale2000 may show this. Is there any chance that I can examine the specimen (alternatively, I would be happy to buy it if that is possible).
I attach grids with the die matches of the VOTA VICENNALIOR and also the remaining parts of the die-matched group.
All obverses and reverses shown side by side are die-matches.
" />
" />
Since the slides only carry minimal information, I will be happy to answer any questions here on this forum.
Thanks again for your attention.
Thank you for the attention given to my talk. Please remember that what you have seen are the slldes for a talk, it is not a written paper. I will present the talk at the numismatic conference in Taormina later this month. It will then become the basis for a comprehensive paper, to be published in the procedings years later.
Please note that after discussions with Prof. Laurent Bricault (Tolouse) and others, I regard Alföldi's suggestion that the festival was moved from 5 March to New Year as wrong. One indication is that the Magnentius tesserae with the legend IMP CAE MAGNENTIVS AVG can only have been produced in 350. Magnentius took Rome 24 Feb 350, so the tesserae cannot have been made for New Year but could have been made for 5 March. So it is rather ambiguous what public vows the VOTA PVBLICA legend refers to.
Also, I have changed Hermanubis to Anubis, following recent research by Michel Malaise.
I have uploaded a revised version to Academia.com and to ResearchGate.
The VOTA VICENNAILIOR (and the spelling error VICENNNALIOR) pieces are most interesting. The object held in the hand is certainly not a human head (as proposed for two hundred years). But what is it? I think that the specimen of elagabale2000 may show this. Is there any chance that I can examine the specimen (alternatively, I would be happy to buy it if that is possible).
I attach grids with the die matches of the VOTA VICENNALIOR and also the remaining parts of the die-matched group.
All obverses and reverses shown side by side are die-matches.
" />
" />
Since the slides only carry minimal information, I will be happy to answer any questions here on this forum.
Thanks again for your attention.
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
For the head in the hand, perhaps a stone ? like a valentinian's coin ?
http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/rechercher-une-monnaie.htm?page=1&personnages=41&ateliers=21&collections=&vendeurs=&motscles=&numric=4&numnbd=&legendes=&nombreResultats=10&btRechercher=Rechercher
http://www.nummus-bible-database.com/rechercher-une-monnaie.htm?page=1&personnages=41&ateliers=21&collections=&vendeurs=&motscles=&numric=4&numnbd=&legendes=&nombreResultats=10&btRechercher=Rechercher
Re: Festival d'Isis
Many thanks for posting higher resolution images! You have the best specimen when it comes to the object in the hand. Some observations:
It is absolutely clear that both the thumb and some fingers are shown. The object is held in the hand, with the thumb and fingers coming around it. If this reflects reality, the object is no more than 6-8 cm in diameter (maybe a bit more allowing for a stylized representation). So it is completely impossible that the object is a head. It certainly has nothing to do with a Serapis head.
In your coin, the object looks cylindrical with rounded ends. Can you see any details?
The object is a key clue to the meaning of the reverse. If we can decipher what it is, we may understand the meaning.
Someone mentioned the apparent anachronism concerning the VICENNALIOR and the date (330/331). There is no problem. The caesar Constantine was to celebrate his vicennalia in 336/337. This was advertised either 5 years in advance (331-332) or ten years in advance (326/327) or anytime in between. Unfortunately (for us) the Romans were very liberal with advertising regnal jubilees (for example Magnentius, who reigned only 350-353, had VOT V MVLT X on the majority of his coins).
Would it be possible for you to take photos of the VICENNALIOR reverse with light from different angles to show more of the hand and object?
With my best regards and thanks.
It is absolutely clear that both the thumb and some fingers are shown. The object is held in the hand, with the thumb and fingers coming around it. If this reflects reality, the object is no more than 6-8 cm in diameter (maybe a bit more allowing for a stylized representation). So it is completely impossible that the object is a head. It certainly has nothing to do with a Serapis head.
In your coin, the object looks cylindrical with rounded ends. Can you see any details?
The object is a key clue to the meaning of the reverse. If we can decipher what it is, we may understand the meaning.
Someone mentioned the apparent anachronism concerning the VICENNALIOR and the date (330/331). There is no problem. The caesar Constantine was to celebrate his vicennalia in 336/337. This was advertised either 5 years in advance (331-332) or ten years in advance (326/327) or anytime in between. Unfortunately (for us) the Romans were very liberal with advertising regnal jubilees (for example Magnentius, who reigned only 350-353, had VOT V MVLT X on the majority of his coins).
Would it be possible for you to take photos of the VICENNALIOR reverse with light from different angles to show more of the hand and object?
With my best regards and thanks.
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
Mr Ramskold, many thanks for giving us this opportunity. Since you tell us that these slides are a framework for an upcoming publication, I don't want to bother you too much...
I read in some studies that these "coins" were mainly made of brass, a rather expensive alloy, yet you write it is bronze?
I didn't understand the reasons for suggesting that these issues were restricted to the anniversaries of Constantine's reign? (In fact, these tesserae might not be related at all with the Isis Festival, did you form your opinion on that question?)
Returning to the issue of the "vota vicennalior" I guess you already got an idea about what kind of thing is holding Constantius. Thank you for the table, I was not sure you were talking about real die-links, the quality of the picture was not good enough. I was just wondering why we find that tessera only after 330 (less common than anticipate vows).
I read in some studies that these "coins" were mainly made of brass, a rather expensive alloy, yet you write it is bronze?
I didn't understand the reasons for suggesting that these issues were restricted to the anniversaries of Constantine's reign? (In fact, these tesserae might not be related at all with the Isis Festival, did you form your opinion on that question?)
Returning to the issue of the "vota vicennalior" I guess you already got an idea about what kind of thing is holding Constantius. Thank you for the table, I was not sure you were talking about real die-links, the quality of the picture was not good enough. I was just wondering why we find that tessera only after 330 (less common than anticipate vows).
myriam- Piliers du forum
- Messages : 9153
Date d'inscription : 25/12/2011
Re: Festival d'Isis
Thank you elegabale for the close-up. We see the thumb clearly, and four (maybe three?) fingers. It almost looks as if he is holding a beer-jug, cheering! Well, maybe not. The object is too difficult to interpret.
Myriam, thanks for showing interest. The brass was introduced sometime after 340. The 306 issue and all of Constantine's issues are of bronze (at least the ones I have examined, but there could be exceptions?). Later, all issues are of brass ('orichalcum').
The chronology suggests that the 'Festival of Isis' tesserae under Constantine were issued on imperial occasions like the taking of Rome, the accession of the caesars, the 5-year anniversaries. The VOTA PVBLICA legend indicates that public vows were taken. It is by no means certain that such vows were taken in connection with the Festival of Isis. For this reason Alföldi thought that the Festival was moved to New Year (1-3 Jan), when important public vows were taken. Now that we can say that the tesserae cannot have been issued for New Year, we must ask: Were they produced for 5 March or for some other occasion? Or for more than one type of occasion? The allusion to the Isis cult and especially Isis Pelagia is clear, so the connection to 5 March is strong. Maybe we can find more evidence in the future.
How can we know why certain types were produced, and when? That is why the VOTA VICENNALIOR type is so interesting. It is unique through all of Roman history. Maybe one day we will understand.
Myriam, thanks for showing interest. The brass was introduced sometime after 340. The 306 issue and all of Constantine's issues are of bronze (at least the ones I have examined, but there could be exceptions?). Later, all issues are of brass ('orichalcum').
The chronology suggests that the 'Festival of Isis' tesserae under Constantine were issued on imperial occasions like the taking of Rome, the accession of the caesars, the 5-year anniversaries. The VOTA PVBLICA legend indicates that public vows were taken. It is by no means certain that such vows were taken in connection with the Festival of Isis. For this reason Alföldi thought that the Festival was moved to New Year (1-3 Jan), when important public vows were taken. Now that we can say that the tesserae cannot have been issued for New Year, we must ask: Were they produced for 5 March or for some other occasion? Or for more than one type of occasion? The allusion to the Isis cult and especially Isis Pelagia is clear, so the connection to 5 March is strong. Maybe we can find more evidence in the future.
How can we know why certain types were produced, and when? That is why the VOTA VICENNALIOR type is so interesting. It is unique through all of Roman history. Maybe one day we will understand.
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
May I suggest that the "object" hold in hand could simply be the mappa?
Regarding the iconography, it is not so far from the representation which appears on the consular diptychs.
Regarding the iconography, it is not so far from the representation which appears on the consular diptychs.
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Mais dans ce cas, ça nous ramène à 326 avec la 2nde célébration des vicennalia de Constantin et du consulat de Constance II (voire les decennalia des Césars et l'entrée de Constantin dans Rome).
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Dear genio popvli romani,
There is certainly some resemblance. More so in the diptychs than in the coinage (where the mappa is usually rather indistinct). The VICENNALIOR object appears to be larger, so that the thumb and fingers do not meet, but that may be insignificant.
In fact, after seeing elagabale's enlargement, I think that the mappa is a resonable explanation. It fits with the prince seated on a throne, holding a sceptre. So unless some even more plausible explanation, or better tesserae, comes to light, the mappa has to be the working hypothesis.
Many thanks Genio popvli romani for the suggestion and the images!
Re the date: It cannot be 326. It is impossible. The iconography of the busts is identical to the first GLORIA issue, far far different from any 326 iconography. The date of VICENNALIOR is 330 or 331. Which one depends on when the GLORIA coinage ws introduced. That is far from certain. The purpose of the GLORIA coinage was to pronounce the equal status of Constantinopolis and Rome. This coinage is intimately connected to 11 May 330 (the inauguration of Constantinopolis). But it is stlll not possible to say if the GLORIA coinage was released some time before 11 May (perhaps already early in 330), or later in the autumn.
There is certainly some resemblance. More so in the diptychs than in the coinage (where the mappa is usually rather indistinct). The VICENNALIOR object appears to be larger, so that the thumb and fingers do not meet, but that may be insignificant.
In fact, after seeing elagabale's enlargement, I think that the mappa is a resonable explanation. It fits with the prince seated on a throne, holding a sceptre. So unless some even more plausible explanation, or better tesserae, comes to light, the mappa has to be the working hypothesis.
Many thanks Genio popvli romani for the suggestion and the images!
Re the date: It cannot be 326. It is impossible. The iconography of the busts is identical to the first GLORIA issue, far far different from any 326 iconography. The date of VICENNALIOR is 330 or 331. Which one depends on when the GLORIA coinage ws introduced. That is far from certain. The purpose of the GLORIA coinage was to pronounce the equal status of Constantinopolis and Rome. This coinage is intimately connected to 11 May 330 (the inauguration of Constantinopolis). But it is stlll not possible to say if the GLORIA coinage was released some time before 11 May (perhaps already early in 330), or later in the autumn.
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
Thank you for the accurate explanations of the datation of the obverse. So, in the eventuality of a consular representation ( Constantius first consulate or Constantine VII) connected with the vicennalia we should more consider the reverse as a commemoration than a celebration?
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Re: Festival d'Isis
To my knowledge, the Romans were not so nostalgic that they would have commemorated a consulate 4 or 5 years later. After all, the consulates were very important for them to provide identifiable years for their own chronology. Even Constantine and his sons gave their consulates faithfully throughout his reign. Vota was a different matter, they are notoriously unreliable.
So what about consular garbs and attires? Does a consular robe indicate consulship at the moment? Well, often it does, but not always. For example, Antioch RIC 7:70 shows both Constantine caesar and Constantius caesar in full consular attire. Constantius' first consulate was 326. The closest ones for Constantine caesar were 324 and 329. And in some bronze coinage (Trier e.g.) any caesar is shown in consular robes, with no special connection to consulates.
I think there is another explanation. The mappa itself is not necessarily indicating consulship. Nor is the sceptre. It is likely that the reverse image merely shows the prince with his princely attires. Or who knows: perhaps the person figured is Constantine himself, not a son? Can we tell?
So what about consular garbs and attires? Does a consular robe indicate consulship at the moment? Well, often it does, but not always. For example, Antioch RIC 7:70 shows both Constantine caesar and Constantius caesar in full consular attire. Constantius' first consulate was 326. The closest ones for Constantine caesar were 324 and 329. And in some bronze coinage (Trier e.g.) any caesar is shown in consular robes, with no special connection to consulates.
I think there is another explanation. The mappa itself is not necessarily indicating consulship. Nor is the sceptre. It is likely that the reverse image merely shows the prince with his princely attires. Or who knows: perhaps the person figured is Constantine himself, not a son? Can we tell?
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
Une petite merveille (parmi d'autres) de la prochaine vente Holyland.
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Magnifique La monnaie semble ne pas être reprise au RIC. Tu penses qu'elle est de la période ?
Re: Festival d'Isis
Mon père possède la même que j'avais posté ici à l'époque :
https://www.nummus-bibleii.com/t3632p15-collection-togirix
https://www.nummus-bibleii.com/t3632p15-collection-togirix
Re: Festival d'Isis
Je ne me suis même pas posé la question. J'ai repris l'attribution telle que.elagabale2000 a écrit: Tu penses qu'elle est de la période ?
Pas de Rome toujours !
La même attribution est toujours reprise : http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=%22deo+sancto+sarapidi%22&category=1-2&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&images=1¤cy=usd&thesaurus=1&order=0&company=
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Ben justement je suis ennuyé, ce festival d'Isis a généré des frappes sur une très longue période, en général dans l'atelier de Rome, sans marque d'exergue.
Le type que tu présentes n'est pas lié aux fêtes romaines mais, à priori, aux fêtes alexandrines. Je me demande s'il ne faut pas lier ces monnaies à certaines frappes autonomes d'Antioche :
http://www.cgb.fr/antioche-demi-follis-ou-demi-nummus,brm_326593,a.html
Je te dis ça sans recherche ni réflexion approfondie. Je trouve un peu étrange que le RIC. VIII ai oublié cette monnaie (peut être qu'elle devait se trouver au VII ?) alors qu'il a listé les VOTA PVBLICA pour l'atelier de Rome
Le type que tu présentes n'est pas lié aux fêtes romaines mais, à priori, aux fêtes alexandrines. Je me demande s'il ne faut pas lier ces monnaies à certaines frappes autonomes d'Antioche :
http://www.cgb.fr/antioche-demi-follis-ou-demi-nummus,brm_326593,a.html
Je te dis ça sans recherche ni réflexion approfondie. Je trouve un peu étrange que le RIC. VIII ai oublié cette monnaie (peut être qu'elle devait se trouver au VII ?) alors qu'il a listé les VOTA PVBLICA pour l'atelier de Rome
Re: Festival d'Isis
Bon ben je suis tombé sur cet article de 1975 :
https://www.academia.edu/951079/Une_frappe_semi-autonome_sous_Maximin_Daza_Revue_belge_de_Numismatique_121_1975_p._91-108
https://www.academia.edu/951079/Une_frappe_semi-autonome_sous_Maximin_Daza_Revue_belge_de_Numismatique_121_1975_p._91-108
Re: Festival d'Isis
Je vais prendre le temps de le lire.
Mais sûr qu'avec la marque d'exergue, ce monnayage est à dissocier des frappe Romaines du festival d'Isis.
Il semble qu'Aföldi et Vagi aient retenu le festival d'Isis. Mais il est vrai que ça rappelle grandement le monnayage semi-autonome d'Antioche. http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=85487
Mais sûr qu'avec la marque d'exergue, ce monnayage est à dissocier des frappe Romaines du festival d'Isis.
Il semble qu'Aföldi et Vagi aient retenu le festival d'Isis. Mais il est vrai que ça rappelle grandement le monnayage semi-autonome d'Antioche. http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=85487
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Re: Festival d'Isis
Isis à gauche
Ici vente Bertolami
Ici vente Bertolami
Al.cofribas- Solidus
- Messages : 6322
Date d'inscription : 17/08/2015
Age : 57
Localisation : Ile de France
Re: Festival d'Isis
Dear all,
The paper by me on the Festival of Isis "coins" (I use the neutral term tokens) is just out. It covers the material struck during the reign of Constantine I. All 125 known specimens (92 in museums, the remainder privately owned) are described, illustrated, and die matched. The result was a surprise: they were struck only special years, in particular every five years for Constantine's dies imperii.
I have uploaded a summary to Academia.edu, and will try to upload several sample pages (i.a. the seven plates).
The paper: Lars Ramskold: A die link study of Constantine’s pagan Festival of Isis tokens and affiliated coin-like ‘fractions’: chronology and relation to major imperial events. Jahrbuch für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte 66, 2016, pp. 157-239, with 40 Figures, 7 Plates, 1 Table.
I thank you members on this forum for your stimulating ideas and good communications!
Lars Ramskold
PS. In the recent Morton and Eden sale there were three more such tokens (plus many later Festival of Isis examples). The dies are not new, so they change nothing. I was lucky to be the highest bidder on those lots, which gives me the opportunity for metallurgical anlysis of these interestig tokens!
The paper by me on the Festival of Isis "coins" (I use the neutral term tokens) is just out. It covers the material struck during the reign of Constantine I. All 125 known specimens (92 in museums, the remainder privately owned) are described, illustrated, and die matched. The result was a surprise: they were struck only special years, in particular every five years for Constantine's dies imperii.
I have uploaded a summary to Academia.edu, and will try to upload several sample pages (i.a. the seven plates).
The paper: Lars Ramskold: A die link study of Constantine’s pagan Festival of Isis tokens and affiliated coin-like ‘fractions’: chronology and relation to major imperial events. Jahrbuch für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte 66, 2016, pp. 157-239, with 40 Figures, 7 Plates, 1 Table.
I thank you members on this forum for your stimulating ideas and good communications!
Lars Ramskold
PS. In the recent Morton and Eden sale there were three more such tokens (plus many later Festival of Isis examples). The dies are not new, so they change nothing. I was lucky to be the highest bidder on those lots, which gives me the opportunity for metallurgical anlysis of these interestig tokens!
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
Welcome here, Mr Ramskold, and thank you for keeping us informed.
The link for the summary of your paper, we shall wait for the sample pages:
https://www.academia.edu/30598179/A_die_link_study_of_Constantine_s_pagan_Festival_of_Isis_tokens_and_affiliated_coin-like_fractions_chronology_and_relation_to_major_imperial_events
Fortunately, the much sought after Alföldi's Festival of Isis is now available on-line.
Even after a quick reading of Alföldi's work, it's easy to notice many differencies between the two studies, specially for the meaning to be given to these issues.
It will be very interesting to compare these two approaches.
I already have a few questions, but I would first read your study carefully. How can we get the entire paper?
The link for the summary of your paper, we shall wait for the sample pages:
https://www.academia.edu/30598179/A_die_link_study_of_Constantine_s_pagan_Festival_of_Isis_tokens_and_affiliated_coin-like_fractions_chronology_and_relation_to_major_imperial_events
Fortunately, the much sought after Alföldi's Festival of Isis is now available on-line.
Even after a quick reading of Alföldi's work, it's easy to notice many differencies between the two studies, specially for the meaning to be given to these issues.
It will be very interesting to compare these two approaches.
I already have a few questions, but I would first read your study carefully. How can we get the entire paper?
myriam- Piliers du forum
- Messages : 9153
Date d'inscription : 25/12/2011
Re: Festival d'Isis
Dear Myriam and all,
The paper is available in libraries carrying the journal (Jahrbuch für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte). There is a one-year restriction for authors to put their papers on line, so I can only post some sample pages (hopefully next week).
Anyone interested can email me privately and I can send the full paper as a pdf.
Thans for your interest.
Lars
The paper is available in libraries carrying the journal (Jahrbuch für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte). There is a one-year restriction for authors to put their papers on line, so I can only post some sample pages (hopefully next week).
Anyone interested can email me privately and I can send the full paper as a pdf.
Thans for your interest.
Lars
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
Merci beaucoup pour ce beau travail Peut on avoir un lien vers un site où nous pourrions acheter la revue ? merci
Re: Festival d'Isis
Pas trouvé, on tombe sur des sites allemands avec des refs d'anciens numéros, c'est plus simple d'envoyer un MP à M. Ramskold puisqu'il a la gentillesse de nous le proposer.
Je l'ai reçu, c'est passionnant et j'espère qu'on y reviendra.
Pour ceux qui fréquentent le forum depuis peu, je rappelle que Lars Ramskold a alimenté bien des discussions ici même:
Le Constantin au pileus pannonicus de Siscia
http://www.nisandbyzantium.org.rs/doc/zbornik14/PDF-XIV/33%20Lars%20Ramskold.pdf
Les vicennalia de Constantin et la mort de Crispus
https://www.academia.edu/3758586/Constantine_s_Vicennalia_and_the_Death_of_Crispus
Un article sur de redoutables faux du mythique SPES PVBLIC au labarum de Constantinople
https://www.academia.edu/1469458/Highly_Deceptive_Forgeries_of_Constantine_s_SPES_PVBLIC_Coinage
Alors un big Thank you Mr. Ramskold!
Je l'ai reçu, c'est passionnant et j'espère qu'on y reviendra.
Pour ceux qui fréquentent le forum depuis peu, je rappelle que Lars Ramskold a alimenté bien des discussions ici même:
Le Constantin au pileus pannonicus de Siscia
http://www.nisandbyzantium.org.rs/doc/zbornik14/PDF-XIV/33%20Lars%20Ramskold.pdf
Les vicennalia de Constantin et la mort de Crispus
https://www.academia.edu/3758586/Constantine_s_Vicennalia_and_the_Death_of_Crispus
Un article sur de redoutables faux du mythique SPES PVBLIC au labarum de Constantinople
https://www.academia.edu/1469458/Highly_Deceptive_Forgeries_of_Constantine_s_SPES_PVBLIC_Coinage
Alors un big Thank you Mr. Ramskold!
myriam- Piliers du forum
- Messages : 9153
Date d'inscription : 25/12/2011
Re: Festival d'Isis
Thank you elagabale2000 for your kind words.
I am not sure if it is possible to buy one issue of the journal. But the authors receive several reprints. I will be happy to send you one. Please email me privately, and give your postal address and I will send it to you.
If anyone else is interested, I will be happy to send reprints as long as I have any left.
I also have the article as a pdf (15MB), so I can send it if anyone wants it. Please email me privately and I will send the pdf as an attachment.
Google translate:
Je vous remercie de vos aimables paroles.
Je ne sais pas s'il est possible d'acheter un numéro de la revue. Mais les auteurs reçoivent plusieurs réimpressions. Je serai heureux de vous envoyer un. S'il vous plaît écrivez-moi en privé, et de donner votre adresse postale et je vais vous l'envoyer.
Si quelqu'un d'autre est intéressé, je serai heureux d'envoyer des réimpressions aussi longtemps qu'il m'en reste.
J'ai aussi l'article en format PDF (15MB), donc je peux l'envoyer si quelqu'un veut. S'il vous plaît écrivez-moi en privé et je vais envoyer le PDF en pièce jointe.
/Lars R.
I am not sure if it is possible to buy one issue of the journal. But the authors receive several reprints. I will be happy to send you one. Please email me privately, and give your postal address and I will send it to you.
If anyone else is interested, I will be happy to send reprints as long as I have any left.
I also have the article as a pdf (15MB), so I can send it if anyone wants it. Please email me privately and I will send the pdf as an attachment.
Google translate:
Je vous remercie de vos aimables paroles.
Je ne sais pas s'il est possible d'acheter un numéro de la revue. Mais les auteurs reçoivent plusieurs réimpressions. Je serai heureux de vous envoyer un. S'il vous plaît écrivez-moi en privé, et de donner votre adresse postale et je vais vous l'envoyer.
Si quelqu'un d'autre est intéressé, je serai heureux d'envoyer des réimpressions aussi longtemps qu'il m'en reste.
J'ai aussi l'article en format PDF (15MB), donc je peux l'envoyer si quelqu'un veut. S'il vous plaît écrivez-moi en privé et je vais envoyer le PDF en pièce jointe.
/Lars R.
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
Merci beaucoup, c'est très généreux de votre part.
Le pdf me suffira amplement, je vous ai transmis mon adresse mail
Le pdf me suffira amplement, je vous ai transmis mon adresse mail
Re: Festival d'Isis
I have now emailed the paper as a pdf file. If anyone else is interested, just contact me privately.
Je suis maintenant envoyé le document en format PDF. Si quelqu'un d'autre est intéressé, contactez-moi en privé.
Je suis maintenant envoyé le document en format PDF. Si quelqu'un d'autre est intéressé, contactez-moi en privé.
Lars Ramskold- Micro nummus
- Messages : 19
Date d'inscription : 02/09/2015
Re: Festival d'Isis
Super ! Merci beaucoup, c'est très aimable de votre part Si vous avez besoin de nous pour de prochains articles, n'hésitez pas vous êtes toujours le bienvenu
Re: Festival d'Isis
Une petite nouvelle (Ex. Gert Boersema)
A/ISIS FARIA; Bust of Isis left, wearing crown of Isis and holding sistrum in r.hand
R/VOTA PVBLICA; Anubis stg.l., holding sistrum and caduceus
1.16g; 15mm
A/ISIS FARIA; Bust of Isis left, wearing crown of Isis and holding sistrum in r.hand
R/VOTA PVBLICA; Anubis stg.l., holding sistrum and caduceus
1.16g; 15mm
Al.cofribas- Solidus
- Messages : 6322
Date d'inscription : 17/08/2015
Age : 57
Localisation : Ile de France
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